(
;FF[4]GM[1]
AP[DGS:1.20.5]
PC[Dragon Go Server: https://www.dragongoserver.net/]
DT[2004-05-10,2004-06-06]
GN[DaoLin-lololibo-62345-20040606]
SO[https://www.dragongoserver.net/game.php?gid=62345]
PB[Laurent Libeaut (lololibo)]
PW[Zhilao Hu (DaoLin)]
BR[13k]
WR[3d]
XM[283]
GC[Game ID: 62345
Game Type: GO (1:1)
Rated: Y

White Start Rating: 3d (-13%) - Elo rating 2287
Black Start Rating: 13k (+27%) - Elo rating 826
White End Rating: 3d (-16%) - Elo rating 2283
Black End Rating: 13k (+11%) - Elo rating 810]
OT[30 days with 6 hours extra per move]
RU[Japanese]
SZ[19]
KM[-59.5]
HA[9]
RE[W+0.5]
AB[dp][jp][pp][dj][jj][jd][pd][pj][dd]PL[W]
;MN[1]W[qf]
C[Hi, have a nice time and game!

Comments are entered in this format , as you see it.
Then it stays in the file.]
;B[qe]
;W[pf]
;B[nc]
;W[pm]
;B[nf]
;W[cf]
;B[fd]
;W[cn]
;B[fp]
;W[fj]
;B[qh]
;W[ph]
;B[oi]
;W[ng]
;B[og]
;W[qi]
;B[mg]
;W[rh]
;B[oh]
;W[nq]
;B[np]
;W[mp]
;B[no]
;W[oq]
C[Laurent, please check these:
http://gobase.org/fuseki/
http://gobase.org/joseki/

http://fuseki.info/fuseki.php?f=full&sb=full

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Fuseki
http://senseis.xmp.net/?OverviewOfFusekiPatterns

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Joseki

http://senseis.xmp.net/?KogoSJosekiDictionary
http://waterfire.us/joseki.htm]
;B[pq]
;W[qn]
;B[lq]
;W[mq]
C[The 1st serious mistake and in general bad style: "do not peep where you could cut" or would like to cut later.

Two very high priority principles in Go are:
- keep your own stones connected 
(in an efficient way of course, i.e. not too tight)

- separate opponent's stones or threaten it
(only important ones, otherwise the opponent is happy to sacrifice some stones for a higher purpose (like generals in a war)]
;B[po]
C[I was more thinking of stealing one eye or potentential one...]
;W[rp]
C[Me too ...]
;B[mn]
;W[kq]
;B[jq]
C[I hesitated between k3 and m4. m4 looks like a trap...]
;W[lr]
C[K3 is simple and fulfills at least a double function:

- attack of the white group,
- thereby indirectly helping all black groups in the neighboorhood (n-o-p3/4/5)
- contributing to protection of territory on the left]
;B[kp]
;W[lp]
;B[kr]
;W[jr]
C[As white in a handicap game, I should not avoid or being afraid of ko.

Despite that we clicked rated game, it is mostly for training reasons, so let's KO.]
;B[lq]
;W[ln]
C["Let's KO then, but that seems to be quiet early in the game ?"

That is right, but I do not expect to die right out.

Otherwise you are right, there is a proverb saying:
"There are no ko threats (big enough) in the beginning".]
;B[kn]
;W[lm]
;B[kq]
C[I hope you don't mind if I take the KO. I have the impression it is not that good for my group o-q but let's see...
For the shape, I read the yellow book on Tesuji from Kiseido which is really good. Hope I could use it more often.]
;W[mm]
C["Tesuji from Kiseido" 
is an excellent book, which gives you the most strength progress per page (bang per buck), especially at your present level.

If you study that serious, you might be 5kyu soon!(7 stones better)

Thank you that you warned me :-)]
;B[nm]
;W[nl]
C[it's not a question of memorization, but understanding and application,
the difference between (only) knowledge and (true) ability.
Übung macht den Meister
Oefening baart kunst
Practice makes perfect
c'est en forgeant qu'on devient forgeron
shu2 neng2 sheng1 qiao3 .... 
(skill comes from practice)

let's play ...]
;B[rq]
;W[qp]
;B[qq]
;W[om]
;B[rs]
C[I have the impression that my group is alive in the corner, but I am not 100 % sure...]
;W[sr]
C[Let's check it out.

Please visit also:
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?EyeSpace>

and especially 
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?JGroup> 
for ways how you could have made it alive!]
;B[sq]
;W[pr]
;B[or]
;W[nr]
;B[ps]
;W[os]
;B[qr]
;W[or]
;B[rn]
;W[rm]
C[nice shape!]
;B[qo]
C[where is the "exit" sign ....]
;W[ro]
C[Often the answer is given by the question already (posing the question means answering it oneself).

You could go to new areas!]
;B[en]
C[Indeed, and keeping these ones as forcing moves.]
;W[dl]
;B[co]
;W[dn]
;B[cl]
;W[em]
C["I think I am taking too much risk, but that's fun"

... it's the fun that counts.
Wether it's risky or not, does not matter at this stage as long as it's good.

The move is unconventional and helps white to develop and make good shape.]
;B[fn]
;W[bo]
;B[bp]
;W[bn]
;B[cq]
;W[dh]
C[Where do you know this from? - it's good!

Do you know why you play there?]
;B[ef]
C[I played here to be sure you won't and I hope I will be able to keep at least the corner (and a bit more).]
;W[ej]
;B[hp]
;W[hd]
;B[ge]
;W[he]
;B[gf]
;W[je]
C[Black sh/could have played hane at Bh14.

EXCURS:
A move I would always try to avoid than as white would be Wj15 (empty triangle). Rather white cuts at Wj14, black counter-cuts at Bj15 and white makes shape by jumping tobi to Wh18, making tactilly miai for living (small) left or right.

Because this standard invasion (h16) in 1-point distance between two opposing stones on the 4-th row will appear quite often, I'll tell you also this:

1) one black move earlier, you played this kosumi (g15) for attacking white.
This is a very good move and 1000% better than those attachments below (h17) or on (h15) the invasion stone. Bravo!

2) This outer kosumi g15 should not be confused at all with the inner kosumi g17, which is defensive only and creates weaknesses (peep e17, san-san invasionc17) after white strengthens himself with h17 (thereby making the kosumi bad shape anyway). 

3) However, there was the other, outer kosumi on the right: J15! This one would leave only the exit on the left for escaping, where already the black stone e14 is waiting to block white's further escape!

This would be the better strategy. Optimally , the black horse-jump (e14) would be placed at d14.

In a way, this a leaninig-attack strategy (<http://senseis.xmp.net/?LeaningAttack>), where the "leaning "-move is already in place.

Funny enough, this c/would convert back to the sequence mentioned above in the EXCURSE, because as white, I would always try to avoid empty triangle and cut/hane.

Hope this is of some help for you!]
;B[kd]
C[Of great use, I tryed to think about it yesterday and I choose g15 instead of j15 thinking the right side was stronger than the left. I still have a lot of trouble recognising strong/weak group and most of all connections. We should discuss the play like h16 one  monday. I think we did and it why I played there but I don't remember the rest...]
;W[hf]
;B[hc]
;W[gc]
C[Bh17 was not a good move - it can be separated. 

Later I tell you what you could have done]
;B[ic]
C[I saw it but still I think it interesting. Was there a way to connect under ?]
;W[gd]
C[No, and that's the reason why it's disadvantegeous to try.]
;B[fc]
;W[fb]
;B[eb]
;W[hb]
;B[db]
;W[qc]
;B[re]
;W[ob]
;B[pc]
;W[pb]
;B[rc]
;W[mc]
;B[nb]
;W[ne]
;B[of]
;W[me]
;B[nd]
;W[ke]
;B[oe]
;W[ld]
;B[lb]
;W[bd]
;B[cc]
;W[im]
;B[hg]
;W[gg]
;B[fg]
;W[gh]
;B[ig]
;W[lg]
;B[nh]
;W[lh]
;B[lj]
;W[kc]
;B[md]
;W[lc]
;B[mf]
;W[mj]
;B[mi]
;W[li]
;B[mk]
;W[kj]
C[extending at m9 would have been better shape (do you remember, what I told you today w.r.t. ataris? Try to avoid them!)

Bm9 had made miai of ... and capturing Wn10.
The atari now states, that black wants to captuer/capture n10 (nice lapsu lingue francophone, n'est pas?). But it has no double function, it does not threaten something else, hence n10 is worthless now.
Therefore white sacrifices now Wn10.]
;B[lk]
C[I did not forget but I really wanted to capture n10. I want to try something I must keep secret... Haha I am sure you are afraid !]
;W[kk]
C[I thought about something too.

Hope it's still connected - if not - I must be prepared to sacrifice more for the bigger purpose!]
;B[nn]
C[Let's see.]
;W[lo]
C[Chapeau!
You're very strong, because your move imposed a multiple threat (around four-fold).

I really had to think a long time about an appropriate defense and can only hope to have found it.

This move 135 (o6) is a very good move at the right time. I don't have the feeling here to play with an average 13th kyu - "Tesuji", "In the beginning" "The fundamentals" "Attack and Defense" seemed to have laid a good basis. Although you made some mistakes, they still not  allowed me to break even.]
;B[kl]
C[Thanks for the compliment, but I am now afraid of wasting the last move. It is complicated to chose one side or the other...
You missed in the list your teaching. It is great to play against you, I learn much quicker.
I think go is the game I was looking for... It is much more complete than chess where I was too lazy to  learn the openings. I like the combination of combinatorial problems (close fights) and overall strategy which is more visual. Then reading go books and playing is really complete fun. I expect continuing processing and I must say that since monday I try not to atari and it seems to work better...]
;W[jk]
C["It is complicated to chose one side or the other..." It is indeed, for me too.
I take you very serious now and do not want to play a` la "Wird schon gut gehen, he's around 15 stones weaker."
This fight is complicated and I'm prepared to sacrifice if I can see where ...
easy to misstep  ...

"You missed in the list your teaching. It is great to play against you, I learn much quicker."

Merci a` toi aussi!]
;B[jl]
;W[il]
;B[jn]
;W[ql]
;B[lf]
C[I don't see any good solution, you seems to always be one step ahead of me, that's a bit frustrating. Let's try something else.]
;W[kf]
C[Handicap Go should not be frustrating, rather enticing! Is enticing ethymologically related to enchanter?

"always be one step ahead of me" - if I'm only one step ahead of you, than this indicates that you fight very close and well. In a normal 9H-handicap game white w/should be ahead more moves in close fights. 
Of course, efficiency, where, after all, Go is about, to be only 1 step ahaed would be more efficient than several moves (1+m)ahead, because white could use m-times the sente for other valuable moves.
But here I had to look deep and see whether I could hold al stones together at all! (move 135 was splendid)

After all, I might have won this very important battle in the lower right, but the whole board war is still on and far from being won for either side! Keep up spirits and Go on.
(What do you thing about white's feelings for about 240 moves in properly adjusted handicap games? If the rating corresponds well with the handicap,  then any win for either sides only comes at the end and has a 50% chance. Fighting up the hill for so long is mentally also difficult and requires perseverance and stamina.

There even and handicap Go differ quite much:
in even Go your estimate whether you're ahead at a given time is more reasonable and objectively justified;
-in handicap Go white can only think in terms of "I'm doing fine and closing the gap")

"Let's try something else." You try very good things...]
;B[ki]
C[I am starting to better understand the need of stones placed a bit everywhere. It gives a lot of attacking possiblities with double (or more) threats. The BIG problem is really where to put the first stones. I suppose it will come with practice.]
;W[ik]
C[" it will come with practice"
&#23408;&#33021;&#29983;&#24039;! 

Practice makes perfect.]
;B[kg]
;W[kh]
;B[jg]
;W[ji]
;B[jc]
;W[jb]
;B[le]
C[I realize it could have been better to wait before performing this (again) failed attack.]
;W[ib]
;B[mb]
;W[kb]
;B[nk]
;W[ol]
;B[ck]
;W[di]
;B[fh]
;W[fi]
;B[gl]
C[Houlala triangle is bad shape !]
;W[fl]
C[Alors, tu m'as vachement bien eu là!

Normally Wg7 is now a workable tesuji.
But here are too many dangerous side effects on the left and above, that's why white plays safe.]
;B[fm]
;W[gk]
;B[hm]
;W[do]
;B[cp]
;W[bc]
;B[bi]
;W[ci]
C[Un deuxieme! A second triangle!

You play really nice shape!
It might be tempting but bad for white to give atari by c10 on Bd10.

Even the white block b12 is dangerous - it seems black could live.]
;B[bh]
;W[cg]
C[""it seems black could live" I should probably spend a whole night to see if b12 works but I am already dreaming of GO, so it is better to play faster."

No, no , I meant black could have lived if white had not played this empty triangle (I might be mistaken twice, though: by the premisse and by its conclusion).

I hope it stay dead now. I need the points for giving the komi!]
;B[bf]
C[Ha, then again let's see how it dies...]
;W[bg]
;B[in]
C[I was thinking that Bb14 was threatening to cut the 2 stones on b16 but that wasn't the case obviously...
Anyway I achieved something: you played 3 empty triangles !]
;W[bb]
;B[cb]
;W[eo]
;B[ep]
;W[hl]
;B[gm]
;W[fo]
;B[go]
;W[de]
;B[ee]
;W[cd]
;B[ls]
;W[ml]
C[Hey , I missed there about 5 points!
(in gote)]
;B[fa]
;W[gb]
;B[mr]
;W[ff]
;B[fe]
;W[eg]
;B[ec]
;W[ok]
C["Just in case I don't want any bad surprise... "

Quite attentive for a 12 kyu!]
;B[nj]
;W[eh]
;B[ff]
;W[pi]
;B[oj]
;W[qj]
;B[rf]
;W[rg]
;B[pg]
;W[qg]
;B[mh]
;W[gi]
;B[ba]
;W[df]
C["I think I have lost some points in the last 10 moves, too much for winning."

The endgame was played quite well by black.
It was black's privelige to play here (d14), destroying 2 points in sente (estimated to be equal to 4 points in gote, hence, which is 2 points reverse sente for me).

The point you just played (b19) is also worth around 3 points wA18/19 cannot be white's anymore and black makes 1 point around d19 (my endgame calculation is weak).

But we are late in the endgame, hence the 3 points net (in gote) can be more than 2 points (in sente, usually estimated = 4 points in gote, thus more than 3), if that sente is worth nothing (e.g. because no points to play are left anyway).

This concept of thinking is called "tedomari" (perhaps "who will get the last point?")
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tedomari>
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?TedomariIsWorthDouble>

Black had a very bad start by losing the corner earlier due to (several, ok) very simple mistakes or misconceptions.
After white could (start to) snatch-off something in the center it looked very promising for white.
When black's splendid move 135 (a fourfold attack) could be paried, the game was effectively over.
It was only really over when black did not succeed in living on the left side or dammaging the left side somehow by threatening to live.]
;B[pk]
C[The fact is that since 2 weeks I try to play more shape moves and less contact ones (ataris in particular) and I am loosing most of the time (6 out of 7 games). The worth part is that I haven't identify yet what is really wrong.

For this game I see clearly (at least now) that trying to live under your stones on the left side is bad since It didn't work and as a consequence you gained strengh and territory on the left and in the center. Fine, then the biggest problem is to know when you can/cannot live inside a group/moyo. Is there a book on that ?]
;W[ms]
C[Often, when you try to implement new concepts, you have to adapt and it does not show immediately in the results.
Somewhat later it might make ..."Snap" ... and you're stronger.

-shape moves are the basis of the game...
-contact plays are necessary in defense for living in hostile surroundings,
-less ataris is good,

Show your lost and won games for commentary.

"trying to live under your stones on the left side "  is not bad , only if you do not succeed.

"to know when you can/cannot live inside a group/moyo. Is there a book on that ?"

There are literally thousends of books on that subject. You read "Tesuji". What you mean falls under Life & Death or "TsumeGo" in Japanese. 
Have you read "Life&Death" from Kiseido?]
;B[ns]
;W[ko]
;B[jo]
;W[ms]
;B[sp]
;W[sn]
;B[ns]
;W[rb]
;B[qd]
;W[ms]
;B[so]
;W[rn]
;B[ns]
;W[hn]
;B[gn]
;W[ms]
;B[ie]
;W[id]
;B[ns]
;W[sc]
;B[qb]
;W[ms]
;B[jh]
;W[ki]
C[Il y'en a si beaucoup ...]
;B[ns]
C[Indeed, but if I remember well you are the one who started the KO...]
;W[gp]
;B[gq]
;W[ms]
;B[op]
;W[on]
;B[ns]
;W[ga]
;B[ea]
;W[ms]
;B[qk]
;W[rk]
;B[ns]
;W[ks]
;B[js]
;W[ms]
;B[cm]
;W[dm]
C[Oehps - don't get ideas here.
Seems you have many ko threats.]
;B[ns]
;W[ap]
;B[aq]
C[How much points is the KO worth ? I have absolutely no idea (I still don't really understand the way of calculating points in the end game...). 
You don't have to answer it yet, I can wait the end of the game.]
;W[ao]
C[(1) "How much points is the KO worth ?"
involves several mutually interdependent questions of the type 
(2) "calculating points in the end game..."

Useful info is found here on the linked sites:
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?KoFighting>

(3) How to fight a ko is still another question, which is touched here: 
We do have this book in the library, I donated it: 
<http://senseis.xmp.net/?FightingKo>

(4) These articles here (a book on the net) taught me something lately (e.g. the simple fact that the value of a (dormant) ko (position) can/will change over time due the "ambient temperature" ((2) = remaining positions) and several ways to calculate/estimate it)
<http://www.gobase.org/studying/articles/matthews/ko/> 

Hope this helps.
If you continue like this I take 2 stones from you next year and learn!]
;B[ms]
C[How much did it take you for becoming 3 dan ?]
;W[sf]
C[You mean Time? approx. 5-6 years (slow).
It depends on a good environment, teacher, motivation, positive feedback (success), discipline , intelligence (= specif. "Go-talent"),
a plan for learning where you're weak etc.]
;B[se]
;W[sg]
;B[ka]
;W[ja]
;B[la]
;W[ab]
;B[ca]
;W[]
C[Il ne reste que les dames, je crois.
(<http://senseis.xmp.net/?Dame>)

Tu gagne avec 2 points je crois.
Peut-'`etre le dernier ko 'etait la cause,
parce que c''etait `a mois de savoir que tu as beacoup plus de menaces!

I could have started another disadvantageous ko at s19, of course also there missing the threats.

I knew I was losing hence it was worth a try to see whether you would make some mistakes.
But I thought you would see that as well ...
Merci!]
;B[]
C[I spent some time yesterday to think on a way to make life on the left, but even with the three stones it wasn't enough.]
C[I'm astonished to see "Score: White wins by 0.5", because I counted for a loss of white!

I must have made an error with some captured stones in the ko or they count chinese and compensate for the 9 handicap stones.

I just checked, it's Japanese Rules, hence I made somewhere a counting error, where reality is in my favour.

Thank you for the game. I think you improved while playing.]
C[I also think I improved during the game but I have to find a better balance between "too safe" and    "lots of attack" and that's not easy. Anyway: losing with 9 stones + -60 komi  is hard for my "amour propre". I need to put pressure on my shoulder...
Thanks for the game, are you open for another one ?]
;W[]
TB[lr][ma][ks][dr][hr][dq][me][mj][ni][oa][ng][ne][ds][na][hs][is][cs][da][bq][br][cr][bs][dc][io][iq][ir][ar][as][ip][oc][od][sa][sb][fq][pb][es][sd][fr][gr][gs][hn][gp][fs][rd][er][qa][qc][hq][pa][ed][jr][sc][ob][ra][rb][ho][eq]
TW[hi][ia][hk][hj][kd][rl][rr][rj][ri][qs][sh][si][sm][ss][sl][sk][sj][qm][qh][ij][jc][ii][ih][if][jd][jf][pn][oo][mo][hh][ic][ek][sp][so][sq][rs][op][rq][np][no][qq][qr][qo][mn][nn][nm][ps][pq][bf][bh][hg][jj][jg][jh][bi][ck][po][pp][dj][cm][cl][ig][ie][ch][cj][ce][bm][bk][bl][dg][dk][gj][ha][fk][el][ei][bj][be][af][ag][ae][ad][kg][ac][ah][ai][am][an][al][ak][aj][hc]
C[White: 60 territories + 2*32 dead stones(B) + 17 prisoners - 59.5 komi = 81.5
Black: 51 territories + 2*6 dead stones(W) + 18 prisoners = 81
Result: W+0.5]
)
